Thursday, February 6, 1997 11:38:56 PM Message From: The Hotline Users Mailing,Hotline@lists.fwparker.org,Internet Subject: The Hotline Users Digest #28 - 02/06/97 To: Geoff Le Feuvre The Hotline Users Mailing List ,Internet The Hotline Users Digest #28 - Thursday, February 6, 1997 Re: account names by Phil Hilton Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by Adam Hinkley Re: unsubscribe by Adam Hinkley Re: 1 user per IP/account by Adam Hinkley Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by Adam Hinkley ban wildcards by Adam Hinkley Re: account names by Adam Hinkley Re: ban wildcards by Noah Daniels Re: account names by Fletcher Rothkopf Re: ban wildcards by Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by David Murphy Re: unsubscribe by David Murphy Re: ban wildcards by Adam Hinkley Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by Jeffrey Boser Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by Jeffrey Boser PR: Macline Merger with MacOVER... by Phil Hilton Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by Adam Hinkley Totally new idea!!! ;-) by Michael Sheets Re: ban wildcards by Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL by Adam Hinkley ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: account names From: Phil Hilton Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:54:26 -0500 >Now which is better - an option to force the person into using the >account name, or to display both names (if different)? both names will clutter the user list. I'm for the single (optional) restricted name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 13:38:08 +1100 >You might try asking why people get banned, eh? If a given user finds himself >(or his domain) banned from 20 servers, he might try a little introspection >regarding his netiquette, if you know what I mean. Why do users get banned? For the same reason that I just implemented private message flood protection in the server. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: unsubscribe From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 13:42:53 +1100 >Yes, send it repeatedly, along with a couple of subscriptions to a few >junk mail lists... I'm just kidding, but the amount of ppl that can't >follow directions is amazing.. The number of ppl that ask me for docs on how to install the server - = despite the file named "=80=80=80 INSTALLATION =80=80=80" that comes = with it - is even more amazing. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: 1 user per IP/account From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 13:45:03 +1100 >>Yes, there IS a problem with it! It can take 10 MINUTES before Open >>Transport decides that a connection is dead. So during that time, you >>would have to wait - unable to get in! > >But what if the specific ping, generated only when another "copy" of the >user tries to log in, has a shorter time-to-live, or some equivalent? >Then, when THAT ping times out (a much shorter time) the server can decide >what to do... Is that off base? So make the timeout smaller if another "copy" of the user logs in? The timeout can't be lowered or the server will end up disconnecting people that ARE alive, but on slow connections. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 13:56:25 +1100 >How about this? >1* A person named pop logs onto a server. >2* The person crashes. >There name is still in th list. >3* They log back on with the same name. >4* Then the server goes "Hey wait a minute here" and sends a code to the >Hotline Client of the first name NOT ping the IP. >5* The Client of the first name doesn't send back the code. >6* The server disconnects the first Client. That is no different from the current system of pinging. No matter how you do it, the only way to tell that a connection is dead is by the fact that you didn't get a response after x minutes. And x minutes cannot be a low value or you'll accidentally disconnect someone that IS alive, but is just on a slow connection. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: ban wildcards From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 14:05:51 +1100 >Sorry to bring this up but you NEED wildcards in the ban. How else could >you block non-static IPs like mine. All the person would have to do is >hang up then dial the internet again and they have a new IP with only >the first 2 parts matching. Like this... No, banning a.b.c.* because someone has a dynamic IP is unacceptable. What if someone else from the same ISP wants to get on? They're banned too. If only one address is banned, it's unlikely that someone will be affected by a ban caused by some other person. If you ban all of a.b.c.*, it's quite likely that many people that haven't done anything wrong will get banned. Having to hang up and dial into the internet again is usually enough to discourage a person. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: account names From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 14:32:46 +1100 >>Now which is better - an option to force the person into using the >>account name, or to display both names (if different)? > >both names will clutter the user list. I'm for the single (optional) >restricted name. Yeah, I was going to put both names in, but I didn't like the clutter. Note that with b20 you can click the User Info button to see the account name and login (provided you have user info access). Perhaps by default it should use the account name, and add a new access checkbox "Can Use Alternate Name", "Can Use Any Name" ? This would be on for guests by default. Why not "Must use account name"? Because it's easier to understand if turning a checkbox on gives the user more access, rather than taking access away. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ban wildcards From: Noah Daniels Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:28:07 -0500 >Having to hang up and dial into the internet again is usually enough to >discourage a person. Oh, no, no, not in my experience.... not at all. -- Noah M. Daniels ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/ "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster" - Jonathan Swift "'Internet' is the 'snausage' word of the 90's." - Ben Vigoda '96 "Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder" - Socrates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: account names From: Fletcher Rothkopf Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 21:37:45 -0600 >>>Now which is better - an option to force the person into using the >>>account name, or to display both names (if different)? >> >>both names will clutter the user list. I'm for the single (optional) >>restricted name. > >Yeah, I was going to put both names in, but I didn't like the clutter. > >Note that with b20 you can click the User Info button to see the account >name and login (provided you have user info access). > >Perhaps by default it should use the account name, and add a new access >checkbox "Can Use Alternate Name", "Can Use Any Name" ? This >would be on for guests by default. > >Why not "Must use account name"? Because it's easier to understand if >turning a checkbox on gives the user more access, rather than taking >access away. Here's what you do: Make each person on the user list have one of thoes little triangles that you see when you view by name in the finder (on folders). When you click the triangle and it points down, the permanent username appears underneath, slightly indented. Otherwise you just see the optional name. Let me know what U think ---------------------------------------------- Fletcher Rothkopf Fletch's E-Mail: fletchie@mcs.com fletchie@rothkopf.com optik@tezcat.com Fletch's Funhouse: Http://www.tezcat.com/~optik PlEaSe IgNoRe AlL SpElLiNg ErRoRs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ban wildcards From: pramsey@mail.tds.net Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 22:38:56 -0500 > >Sorry to bring this up but you NEED wildcards in the ban. How else could > >you block non-static IPs like mine. All the person would have to do is > >hang up then dial the internet again and they have a new IP with only > >the first 2 parts matching. Like this... > > No, banning a.b.c.* because someone has a dynamic IP is unacceptable. > > What if someone else from the same ISP wants to get on? They're banned > too. Ah but you MUST think about the whole. If there is someone causing a large problem, the owner of the site should be able to block that person. If wildcards are not put in then the ban would only be as useful as a kick. Maybe if you put in a BAN-KICK it would help more... 1* A user is causing problems. 2* The admin warns the user. 3* The user doesn't care and keep causing problems. 4* The admin selects the users name and clicks a Ban-Kick button. 5* The current IP of the user is banned and the user is kicked from the server. I see your problem with this so you don't have to send a email saying it; After a while a lot of IPs will be in the ban and will be almost the same as wildcards. It would give a level of ease to the admin of the site. Just something to think about. It is the OWNERS site, not the users. If the owner wants to do something about users then he/she should be able to. -togtog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: David Murphy Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 22:52:12 -0500 >From: >The irc ban method has RUINED its usability for the *majority*. Domain >bans are common, far more common than individual bans...... >people have to run through some bull-drek long list of servers just to >find one that accepts them I agree with boserj. I found that because a local ``friend'' of mine had been abusing IRC (kick wars, bots/eggdrops/80 clones/scripts, etc. --he's the author of the Shanta script) in a *******major****** way, I was unable to login to practically any EFNet server. (They had k-lined "*.*.washington.dc.ms.uu.net." where "cust38.max20.washington.dc.ms.uu.net." is an example domain.). I always got an Error message: Abusive Clone site; K-lined, Killed, etc... Please, oh please, don't let this kill "feature" be added to Hotline. David <__________________________________________________________> \ <"David Murphy" davidmurphy@earthlink.net> / / ...................................................... \ / \ / Home of Hotline Nickname Registry! \ / \ \ / ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: unsubscribe From: David Murphy Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 22:52:28 -0500 hinks wrote: >...filter... "unsubscribe"... Based on what I've heard on the LetterRip-Talk list, the list software only does this if the subject or first line begins with unsubscribe. I'm not sure if multiple placements or wordings (remove, sign off) are supported or not... David <__________________________________________________________> \ <"David Murphy" davidmurphy@earthlink.net> / / ...................................................... \ / \ / Home of Hotline Nickname Registry! \ / \ \ / ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ban wildcards From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 15:10:56 +1100 >1* A user is causing problems. >2* The admin warns the user. >3* The user doesn't care and keep causing problems. >4* The admin selects the users name and clicks a Ban-Kick button. >5* The current IP of the user is banned and the user is kicked from the >server. Yes, I had always intended the ban to kick as well. There is no reason why you would want to ban someone and leave them connected, so it would ban and kick in the same action. BTW, ban should only last for 30 minutes or so and then be automatically unbanned by the server. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: Jeffrey Boser Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 20:09:33 -0700 >From: Noah Daniels, ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu >>>From: Shane Crosby, s-crosby@worldnet.att.net >>> >>>Whats not right is the freedom for these losers to come on and ruin it >>>for others. IRC has ban for the same reason, and no one will get banned >>>unless there is reason for it, don'b be an asshole, and you wont get >>>banned. >> >>Thats the biggest lie I've ever heard about irc. >> >>The irc ban method has RUINED its usability for the *majority*. Domain >>bans are common, far more common than individual bans. And since there >>is no meta-irc server to tell people where all the current servers are, >>people have to run through some bull-drek long list of servers just to >>find one that accepts them, and usually in a week they are banned there >>again, despite not using it wrong. > >You might try asking why people get banned, eh? If a given user finds himself >(or his domain) banned from 20 servers, he might try a little introspection >regarding his netiquette, if you know what I mean. > >Hypothetically speaking, of course ;-) That is the whole point. With a domain ban, it is NOT the netiquette of the individual that is the problem. It is the action of one person ruining it for the majority. If it was a specific-person ban, I'd agree, but there are lots of people on, say, aol, that are responsable. Probably even the majority. And its the #1 banned domain on irc. Its almost impossible to use most irc nets from aol. Domain name banning allows the individual to ruin it for the group. Something I have seen, and is tempting to use on hotline to prove my point later, is to get accounts in numerous domains and force a domain banning of all the popular users. Its been done repeatedly on irc, and a hotline implementation would allow the same thing. .....jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: Jeffrey Boser Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 20:17:26 -0700 >From: Adam Hinkley, hinks@netspace.net.au > >>(btw, the obvious solution is to allow people to accept personal >>messages or not by making the other user's icon blink until you >>click on it and bring up the messages, for example. Not to ban >>them. Its unnecessary.) > >Meanwhile, the user is opening up 300 connections to your server all at >once, which causes it to crash.... The one-connection per ip would help that, and there are probably a few changes in how the server handles connections that would clear the problem up completely (but add new problems, like inability to handle slip emulators and proxies and such). Security on the internet is a fragile thing. ....jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PR: Macline Merger with MacOVER... From: Phil Hilton Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:17:03 -0500 The following press release was just sent out to about 20 Macintosh oriented internet publications and mailing lists: *************************************************************************** Macline Press Release: (2/7/97) Merger with MacOver and support of MacSavvy Macline URL: http://macline.fwparker.org E-Mail: macline@macline.fwparker.org Macline is proud to announce that it has merged with Mark Tuleweit's MacOver website. A great site offering links to the best resources for customizing your Macintosh. Macline will mirror files presented on the MacOver website. (http://www.macover.net <-- New URL as of 2/7/97) This will provide Macline users with an even greater source of public domain shareware, which can be downloaded using faster than FTP, resumable file transfers via Adam Hinkley's "Hotline" internet client. (For more informatin on Hotline, visit the Macline website, or Adam Hinkley's site at http://netspace.net.au/~hinks) Macline would also like to announce that it has become a proud supporter of the MacSavvy site. (http://www.macsavvy.com) Macline will also mirror back issues of the monthly e-zine, as well as public domain shareware which has been reviewed by MacSavvy. So, what's all this mean? It means two main things. It means that Macline will now be providing an even greater source of information and shareware to it's users at no charge, and that the Hotline community is growing more rapidly than ever. The Hotline software, (currently in b20, soon to be a final 1.1 release), is truly a work of art. It's interface is elegant, it's ease of use is astounding, and the resumable file transfers are a landmark in internet technology. Unlike a soon to be released FTP client, Hotline is capable of resuming file transfers at any point, and for files of any type. Hotline is completley shielded to archaic UNIX commands, and optimized for the MacOS. Thank you for your time, The Macline Administration Team Phil Hilton (Cheesy) - Co-Macline Admin _______________________________________________________________ ********************************************* * __ __ _ _ * * | \/ | __ _ ___| (_)_ __ ___ * * | |\/| |/ _` |/ __| | | '_ \ / _ \ * * | | | | (_| | (__| | | | | | __/ * * |_| |_|\__,_|\___|_|_|_| |_|\___| * * ---------------------------------- * * - The OFFICIAL Macintosh Hotline Server - * * (http://macline.fwparker.org) * * * * macline@macline.fwparker.org * * * ********************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 15:36:05 +1100 >I agree with boserj. I found that because a local ``friend'' of mine had >been abusing IRC (kick wars, bots/eggdrops/80 clones/scripts, etc. --he's >the author of the Shanta script) in a *******major****** way, I was >unable to login to practically any EFNet server. (They had k-lined >"*.*.washington.dc.ms.uu.net." where >"cust38.max20.washington.dc.ms.uu.net." is an example domain.). I always >got an Error message: Abusive Clone site; K-lined, Killed, etc... This could never happen with hotline because the servers aren't linked into one global network - if you're banned on one server, you're NOT banned on any others. Also, I'm not going to be adding domain bans and wildcards. Simply banning of a SINGLE ip address for 30 minutes (after which time it is automatically removed). ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Totally new idea!!! ;-) From: Michael Sheets Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 22:30:31 -0600 Ok to solve the ban, etc. problems, what about creating a completely random number at the first startup of hotline it would be a pretty good size number (say 20 characters) and that way you can do "wildcard" ban but it will only deny a person *if* both the ip and the number match. Not a perfect solution as numbers could overlap but better than nothing. Another idea is that something that palace has when you ban someone you can specify the length of the banso someone blew his top and need to cool off, your could ban them for 24 hours and the system would automaticly delete the ban after 24 hours, sorta like punishment but not a complete ban forever. Just some thoughts... ---> Michael Sheets Infinite Designs ---> 5559 Spanish Trace msheets@wwisp.com ---> Pinson, AL 35126 "For one to know how smart they really are one must only look at how stupid they were five years ago." - Michael Sheets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ban wildcards From: pramsey@mail.tds.net Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 23:35:52 -0500 > BTW, ban should only last for 30 minutes or so and then be automatically > unbanned by the server. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline Then how about this? A Ban that can use wildcards BUT automatically unbans after 30-45 minutes? -togtog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Friggin Losers Ruin HL From: Adam Hinkley Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 15:54:10 +1100 >Something I have seen, and is tempting to use on hotline to prove >my point later, is to get accounts in numerous domains and force >a domain banning of all the popular users. Its been done repeatedly >on irc, and a hotline implementation would allow the same thing. For the last time: I'm NOT implementing domain name bans and wildcards. ____________________________________________________________________ Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of The Hotline Users Digest --- Internet Message Header Follows --- Received: from macline.fwparker.org by bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.0) id AAA18184; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:38:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199702070538.AAA18184.18184@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> From: The Hotline Users Mailing List To: The Hotline Users Mailing List Subject: The Hotline Users Digest #28 - 02/06/97 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 22:38:56 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Precedence: Bulk X-ListServer: LetterRip 1.0.1 by Fog City Software, Inc.