The Hotline Users Digest #179 - Thursday, May 15, 1997

  Re: software piracy
          by togtog -Paul Ramsey <togtog@bewley.net>
  Re: software piracy
          by Bengt =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stenstr=F6m?= <bengt.stenstrom@swipnet.se
  Re: The Hotline Users Digest #178 - 05/14/97
          by Avi Oslick <standard@netaxs.com>
  Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
          by David <dfbills@syr.edu>
  Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
          by Alan Goates <al@ucsd.edu>
  Re: The Hotline Users Digest #178 - 05/14/97
          by Noah M. Daniels <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu>
  Re: software piracy
          by Jason Yates)(by way of Phil Hilton <bit@cyberstreet.com>
  Re: Hotline 1.1b22 Question
          by Guttorm Flataboe <gflatabo@sn.no>
  Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
          by Paul Berezansky <letoii@earthlink.net>
  API
          by Rosyna <rosyna@mail.im3.com>
  Tracker Concerns
          by Andy Misle <amisle@inetnebr.com>
  Re: software piracy
          by Steve <daedalus@tezcat.com>
  getinfo question
          by Orya <orya@mailzone.com>
  Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
          by Jonathan Borzilleri <borz@netsync.net>
  Re: software piracy
          by craigy <craigy@coqui.net>
  Re: The Hotline Users Digest #178 - 05/14/97
          by Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
  Re: API
          by Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
  Re: software piracy
          by Jason Yates)(by way of Phil Hilton <bit@cyberstreet.com>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: software piracy
From: togtog -Paul Ramsey <togtog@bewley.net> (by way of
 phil@HotlineSW.com (Phil Hilton))
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:21:23 +0100

>>Let me erase all doubt by making it quite clear that neither I nor
>>Hotline Communications condone software piracy.
>>
>>Furthermore, Hotline was NOT designed especially for pirating software.
>>However, if someone chooses to use it for that purpose, it is out of my
>>control.
>
>This announcement does not erase all doubt.  Hotline IS being used for
>pirating software, and whether Hotline Communications condones it or not,
>the application must certainly SEEM designed for that purpose- to the
>pirates, and those who wish to stop them.

Guns are used everyday to murder people. Were guns made for crime? NO.
Hotline is being used by pirates everyday. Was Hotline made for pirates? NO.

May I note Pirates are good and bad. They break the law but they are using
Hotline, saying to the world that Hotline is the fastest, easiest and over
all best internet program made today. Every pirate that comes to Hotline is
saying that Hotline is GREAT!

.......................................................

 ____________________________________________________________
|     togtog -- Paul Ramsey       |    togtog@bewley.net     |\
|---------------------------------|--------------------------| |
|      Knoxville, TN, USA         |   -- togTech Design --   | |
|  http://www.bewley.net/~togtog  | HTML, Graphics, Perl CGI | |
|             -- togtog - Always and forever --              | |
|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|


Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out:
<http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>

Macs are PCs with brains!



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: software piracy
From: Bengt =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stenstr=F6m?= <bengt.stenstrom@swipnet.se> (by
 way  of phil@HotlineSW.com (Phil Hilton))
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:27:13 +0100

>Furthermore, Hotline was NOT designed especially for pirating software.
>However, if someone chooses to use it for that purpose, it is out of my
>control.

So, are all those Hotline "servers" killing the Mac market, just when
they needed their customers best?

Come to think of it:

Could it be that the Microsnort employees have found out about Hotline,
pirated Macintosh software, opening up lots of Hotline "servers" ("owned"
by those same employees), "giving" away Macintosh software just to see
the ship sink...?????? Too far-fetched?

Business is war you know....

/Bengt Stenstrom
bengt.stenstrom@swipnet.se



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: The Hotline Users Digest #178 - 05/14/97
From: Avi Oslick <standard@netaxs.com> (by way of phil@HotlineSW.com (Phil
 Hilton))
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:59:16 +0100

Hate to tell ya.. But if I remember hinks orginal hotline annoucement it
clear stated
that hotline was a WAREZ intended software package. In addition In
version of hotline including version as late as b19, Hotline did contain
a warez site in the bookmarks



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
From: David <dfbills@syr.edu> (by way of phil@HotlineSW.com (Phil Hilton))
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:24:14 -0500

Adam Hinkley write:

>Perhaps a better way to do it would be so that if you're a mac person,
>you don't see windoze servers at all.   ie, use different trackers.
>Someone running a tracker can say that their tracker is for mac servers
>only.  Or for windoze servers only.  Or for servers devoted to topic xyz.


I think mac people need to see pc servers and vice versa.  I'm not opposed
to separate trackers, but as an admin of Newton Intelligence, I need PC
people to see my server.

We have files that ideally should be accessable to mac, pc, unix, and amiga
users.  The more people that can connect to our server, the better.

-->David out.
_____________________________^_______________________________
David F. Bills                            Newton Intelligence
Syracuse University                   hotline://orion.syr.edu
dfbills@syr.edu                      http://www.rinzai.com/ni
               Maxwell School: Policy Studies
                http://web.syr.edu/~dfbills
____________________________@}-______________________________



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
From: Alan Goates <al@ucsd.edu> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:51:42 -0400

>Perhaps a better way to do it would be so that if you're a mac person,
>you don't see windoze servers at all.   ie, use different trackers.
>Someone running a tracker can say that their tracker is for mac servers
>only.  Or for windoze servers only.  Or for servers devoted to topic xyz.

Tracker filters would be *awesome*! Something along the lines of what
MT-Newswatcher does, but not as complex...

AL-G.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: The Hotline Users Digest #178 - 05/14/97
From: "Noah M. Daniels" <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:20:15 -0400

>Hate to tell ya.. But if I remember hinks orginal hotline annoucement it
>clear stated
>that hotline was a WAREZ intended software package.

No it didn't. It mentioned that it was excellent for file transfers, but
(SPA's lame "don't copy that floppy" slogan to the contrary) not all file
transfers are piracy.

 In addition In
>version of hotline including version as late as b19, Hotline did contain
>a warez site in the bookmarks

Oh really? Which one? While we all know that most non-warez sites probably
have a few warez files for the admins to access, I really don't think any
of the bookmarked sites contained copyrighted software for general access,
unless it was an accident.

-- Noah M. Daniels
    ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu
   http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/
    "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster"
      - Jonathan Swift

What began
as desire

will end
wiser."

- Allen Ginsberg

"Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder" -
Socrates



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: software piracy
From: bit@cyberstreet.com (Jason Yates) (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:51:19 -0400

Bengt Stenstr=F6m (by way of phil@HotlineSW.com (Phil Hilton)) wrote:
>
> >Furthermore, Hotline was NOT designed especially for pirating software.
> >However, if someone chooses to use it for that purpose, it is out of my
> >control.
>
> So, are all those Hotline "servers" killing the Mac market, just when
> they needed their customers best?
>
> Come to think of it:
>
> Could it be that the Microsnort employees have found out about Hotline,
> pirated Macintosh software, opening up lots of Hotline "servers" ("owned"
> by those same employees), "giving" away Macintosh software just to see
> the ship sink...?????? Too far-fetched?

This has gone from off-topic to absurd. First of all, I don't think
Microsoft is trying to destroy the Mac software market, considering they
have many programs in it (Microsoft Mail, Office, Word, Works, etc.).
Second of all, piracy itself doesn't even hurt the market, considering
that most pirated software 1) isn't used for any great profit; and 2)
probably wouldn't be purchased by the pirater either way. I mean, take
your average 13 year old wannabe-hacker pirate. He's browsing around
some Hotline servers, and ends up downloading Photoshop. After this he
trys it out, gets bored of wondering how to use it, and throws it in his
folder of warez. No loss for the company, and Billy is satisfied with
another days good work. This is how the majority of software piracy
happens...

-Jason



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Hotline 1.1b22 Question
From: Guttorm Flataboe <gflatabo@sn.no> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:42:21 -0400

>Who else thinks Hotline1.1 b22 should be Hotline1.2 b1 because of the large
>upgrade? Beta numbers are for small fixes not for super large changes. Adam
>is changing 1/3 of Hotline, this is no little fix and that should be shown
>in the version number, or how about Hotline1.1  no beta number.

Why not make 1.1 Final, 1.5 instead?



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
From: Paul Berezansky <letoii@earthlink.net> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:44:14 -0400

What the hell is wrong with PC servers. YOu all are getting waaaay to
anal about this whole issue. Who the hell needs a port in the first
place. I think that a port is just like tripling all Hink's worries. if
you think weall sound stupid and childish and annoying think about a
whole new platform of Pirates and Pornomaniaks and Mp3 listeners will
do. I didn't know that you were selling the software Yet and needed a
new Customer base. so why did this issue come up in the first place.


P.S. to the microsoft Idea. if this is ported and there are ppl out
there pirating Office and Win95 then this'll really be a poing of
attention. I can imagine a 20/20 report "A new on-line community is a
cesspool of software-piracy and pornography", "Here is Jim with an
exclusive interview with Bill Gates on the subject."
Hotline is software (As opposed to FTP and IRC) and can be "I guess"
shut down if it is in the interest of a comepany (Adobe, Microsoft) to
do so. Might I addd that microsoft is VEERRYYY particular about the
pirating of it's products.

Sorry, I stray from the subject
and sorry for bad spelling


Leto_II



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: API
From: Rosyna <rosyna@mail.im3.com> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:51:24 -0400

Hinks when you gonna get started on MacOS 8 ccompatibility?

DANGER
Great White Sharks (Carcharodon carcharias) hunt for sea lions, harbor
seals, elephant seals and other sea creatures in many prime surfing areas.
If you, in any way, resemble a plump, aquatic creature with short, stubby
appendages extending from its sides, DO NOT SURF.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Tracker Concerns
From: Andy Misle <amisle@inetnebr.com> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:29:42 -0400

When I am on Macline, my name is red, and "newbies" appear, the question I
most frequently get asked is HOW TO USE THE TRACKER or WHAT ADDRESS DO I
USE ? In an average day, I hear this about 10 times. We need to have some
way of letting new users know that the best address is
tracker.cyberdream.net, where they need to put it, and how to use it (just
click the button!). This issue needs to be addressed, either as a separate
Read Me file, or already typed in, whatever... I'm tired of answering this
question EVERY day.

.__  __.._.                                     /| ._.
|  \/  || |                                    / | | |
| \  / || |       Andy Misle   "MacNet"        | |_| |
| |\/| || |       Macline File Administrator   |  _  |
| |  | || |____.  E-Mail: amisle@inetnebr.com  | | | |
|_|  |_||______|  WWW: http://hl.base.org/     |_| | |
                                                   |/



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: software piracy
From: Steve <daedalus@tezcat.com> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:33:12 -0400


>> Could it be that the Microsnort employees have found out about Hotline,
>> pirated Macintosh software, opening up lots of Hotline "servers" ("owned"
>> by those same employees), "giving" away Macintosh software just to see
>> the ship sink...?????? Too far-fetched?
>
>This has gone from off-topic to absurd. First of all, I don't think
>Microsoft is trying to destroy the Mac software market, considering they
>have many programs in it (Microsoft Mail, Office, Word, Works, etc.).
>Second of all, piracy itself doesn't even hurt the market, considering
>that most pirated software 1) isn't used for any great profit; and 2)
>probably wouldn't be purchased by the pirater either way. I mean, take
>your average 13 year old wannabe-hacker pirate. He's browsing around
>some Hotline servers, and ends up downloading Photoshop. After this he
>trys it out, gets bored of wondering how to use it, and throws it in his
>folder of warez. No loss for the company, and Billy is satisfied with
>another days good work. This is how the majority of software piracy
>happens...

Either that, or the pirated program is something the user already owns, but
he/she wants the peace of mind that the dongle isn't conflicting with some
extension or another app, or that it doesn't really matter anymore if the
sacred keydisk gets covered with peanut butter and jelly.

As an aside: if the cost of commercial software includes the cost of
developing copy protection for it, then I am in effect paying for piracy
whether I pirate or not.  Can't this be viewed as *encouragement* to pirate
"my fair share", i.e., software equal in value to the "extra" I have paid
for copy protection?  This is probably an argument that has been covered
before, but I'm interested to see the responses.




"Hiiirborsfir, kenu kenishkenu - heebor susfirni hmmhmm, bork bork bork!"
-The Swedish Chef from the Muppet Show



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: getinfo question
From: Orya <orya@mailzone.com> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:07:39 -0400

Hinks, Phil, Hotline Devleloment team: For a later version, Is it
possible to show the size of a folder in the Get Info of the folder?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil responds now:

I beleive it was agreed that it would
be too much of a strain on the server.
An option might be possible. But I for
one find it much more valuable to get
a # of items as opposed to sizes. I
like to know when something has been
added or deleted without opening the
directory and waiting for a file
listing.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Recognizing Mac Servers
From: Jonathan Borzilleri <borz@netsync.net> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:23:03 -0400

Paul Berezansky wrote:

>What the hell is wrong with PC servers. YOu all are getting waaaay to
>anal about this whole issue. Who the hell needs a port in the first
>place. I think that a port is just like tripling all Hink's worries. if
>you think weall sound stupid and childish and annoying think about a
>whole new platform of Pirates and Pornomaniaks and Mp3 listeners will
>do. I didn't know that you were selling the software Yet and needed a
>new Customer base. so why did this issue come up in the first place.

There is nothing *WRONG* with PC servers....but as both you, and everyone
else knows...
there are a helluva lot more of them than us...if servers were presented
w/o anyway of differentiating them the mac world of hotline might cease
to exist (ok mabey thats a bit extreem) in any case...you get my point
right?


--
Jonathan Borzilleri
NightHawk
borz@netsync.net
http://www.netsync.net/users/borz/
----------------------------------------------
"Do you know the Klingon proverb that tells us
 revenge is a dish that is best served cold,
 it is very cold in space..."
----------------------------------------------
"Life is what happens to you while your out
 making other plans."
----------------------------------------------
"Fate protects fools, little children,
 and ships named Enterprise."
----------------------------------------------
"A little revolution now and then is a
 healthy thing, don't you think?"
----------------------------------------------
"Microsoft asks where you want to go today,
 Apple asks where you want to go tomorrow."
----------------------------------------------
Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out:
<http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>
to see how you can help the cause.
----------------------------------------------



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: software piracy
From: craigy <craigy@coqui.net> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:53:13 -0400

>
>>> Could it be that the Microsnort employees have found out about Hotline,
>>> pirated Macintosh software, opening up lots of Hotline "servers" ("owned"
>>> by those same employees), "giving" away Macintosh software just to see
>>> the ship sink...?????? Too far-fetched?
>>
>>This has gone from off-topic to absurd. First of all, I don't think
>>Microsoft is trying to destroy the Mac software market, considering they
>>have many programs in it (Microsoft Mail, Office, Word, Works, etc.).
>>Second of all, piracy itself doesn't even hurt the market, considering
>>that most pirated software 1) isn't used for any great profit; and 2)
>>probably wouldn't be purchased by the pirater either way. I mean, take
>>your average 13 year old wannabe-hacker pirate. He's browsing around
>>some Hotline servers, and ends up downloading Photoshop. After this he
>>trys it out, gets bored of wondering how to use it, and throws it in his
>>folder of warez. No loss for the company, and Billy is satisfied with
>>another days good work. This is how the majority of software piracy
>>happens...

Billy is more likely to do what I do.  Trash the program.  I trash half
the things I D/L when I find they are practically worthless without a
manual.  I also ussually end up buying the things I D/Led.  Like I
recently bought A-10 Attack and Harpoon II for $5 each from Electronic
Boutique.  That's practically pirating and I get the manuals too =).
About the only people that pirate frequently just to try things out are
people with no cash or just cursory curiosity about the program.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: The Hotline Users Digest #178 - 05/14/97
From: Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
Date: Thu, 15 May 97 11:16:20 +1000

>Hate to tell ya.. But if I remember hinks orginal hotline annoucement it
>clear stated
>that hotline was a WAREZ intended software package.

Hotline is not a "warez intended software package". 

>In addition In
>version of hotline including version as late as b19, Hotline did contain
>a warez site in the bookmarks

If it did, then I was unaware of it.  If any of the current bookmarks are 
"warez sites", let me know and I'll remove them immediately.

...........................................................
 /|  _
/ | | |                     Adam Hinkley
| |_| |                     CEO/Software Development
|  _  | O T L I N E
| | | |COMMUNICATIONS       adam@HotlineSW.com
|_| | |                     http://www.HotlineSW.com/
    |/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: API
From: Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
Date: Thu, 15 May 97 11:29:04 +1000

>Hinks when you gonna get started on MacOS 8 ccompatibility?

I'm going to be looking into it very soon.

...........................................................
 /|  _
/ | | |                     Adam Hinkley
| |_| |                     CEO/Software Development
|  _  | O T L I N E
| | | |COMMUNICATIONS       adam@HotlineSW.com
|_| | |                     http://www.HotlineSW.com/
    |/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: software piracy
From: bit@cyberstreet.com (Jason Yates) (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:37:48 -0400

> As an aside: if the cost of commercial software includes the cost of
> developing copy protection for it, then I am in effect paying for piracy
> whether I pirate or not.  Can't this be viewed as *encouragement* to pirate
> "my fair share", i.e., software equal in value to the "extra" I have paid
> for copy protection?  This is probably an argument that has been covered
> before, but I'm interested to see the responses.

Heh, I hadn't really thought about that, considering that basicly all
the software I use is free/shareware. If I ever do need a program, I
usually just download it simply because it's alot simpler than the
purchasing process. But to go along with your theory, I'd say pirating
an ammount equal to the copy-protection-inflation-rate from the company
you bought the original piece of software would be acceptable (not other
companies though, being that they didn't contribute to the
copy-protection-inflation in that piece of software). =)

-Jason



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End of The Hotline Users Digest