The Hotline Users Digest #172 - Saturday, May 10, 1997

  Open Letter to the Hotline Community
          by Noah M. Daniels <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu>
  OpenLetter, Part II
          by =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22R.R=96gner=22?= <da.enemy@rhein-neckar.netsu
  Re: Open Letter to the Hotline Community
          by togtog -Paul Ramsey <togtog@bewley.net>
  The Hotline Users Digest #171 - 05/09/97
          by Huck <jason@hotlineSW.com>
  Re: The Hotline Users Digest #171 - 05/09/97
          by Noah M. Daniels <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu>
  (no subject)
          by Paul Berezanskiy <letoii@earthlink.net>
  Re: Open Letter to the Hotline Community
          by Jeremy Williams <jwilliams@RoanokeVA.NET>


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Subject: Open Letter to the Hotline Community
From: "Noah M. Daniels" <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu> (by way of
 cheesy@cybertours.com (Phil Hilton))
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:33:02 +0100

Dear members of the Hotline community,

Like many of you, I have been using Hotline for some time. Actually, I
have been using it since the first beta I heard about, beta 14, which
was released in November of 1996. Some people have been using it even
longer, though most of Hotline's users have just discovered the
program in the last couple of months.

Hotline started out as a fun adventure, a way to chat, transfer files
(legal and otherwise), discuss things, meet people. Basically, it's
what America Online should have been, and what IRC could never be.
More than any program I've ever seen, even Cyberdog, Hotline brings
the Mac to the Internet.

One of the things I've enjoyed most about the Hotline experience is
the openness of everything. Features were suggested on servers first,
and then on the Hotline mailing list when that became too unwieldly.
Phil Hilton generously devoted his time to maintaining the list, even
dealing with the flood of unsubscribe messages from people who couldn't
follow directions. Adam Hinkley somehow managed to reply to
everyone, taking some suggestions and not being afraid to say that
others were boneheaded. Everyone had a say, and it worked. I have been
computing for well over a decade, and I have never seen a program
develop as quickly or as elegantly as Hotline.

The Hotline Public Relations team, formed of good intentions and
willing volunteers, has done some wonderful things. Macline got Andrew
Welsh to participate in a chat. Hotline entered in the Human Interface
Design Excellence contest (I helped write the application). I sort of
wonder how a beast of a program like Adobe Illustrator 6 or Symantec
Visual Cafe ends up as a finalist and Hotline does not, but when the
best program doesn't win, you know there's something wrong with
the contest :-). The PR team called up venture capitalists and
companies, and thanks to them some wonderful things are happening.
Hotline Software will get some funding, and some interesting bundling
deals may appear.

Then, somehow, something went astray. The PR team ceased being merely
a PR team. Now, Adam Hinkley only listens to them for suggestions;
while he is kind enough to reply to messages on the hotline list, most
feature discussions go on behind closed doors. The PR mailing list is
not public. One friend of mine has expressed concern that he's
emailed many feature suggestions to Hinks, and not gotten a single
response. I don't want to mention his name, but this friend of mine
has been using Hotline since beta 14 or so just like I have. All of a
sudden, we're out of the loop. We're not part of the exclusive PR
club, so our suggestions are virtually ignored.

To make matters worse, Hotline 1.1b22 is going to be a private beta,
with Nondisclosure Agreements and all! Why? To what end? Hotline
started as an open community, and that's why it's grown so fast
and become so popular. Now, there are some advantages to a private
testing phase in early development, so users do not experience
dangerously buggy software. But when the software is stable, and new,
desparately needed features are being added - when threaded news is
making its first appearance - why are we loyal members of the hotline
community cut out? Sure, we can apply to be beta testers, and I have -
and I'm sure everyone who knows the difference between dev, alpha
and beta (and many who don't) have applied. But we're all going to
be under NDA, and we won't see how complete newbies respond to the
new human interface issues of threaded news and private chat.

Many people complain that MacOS 7.6.1 is buggy and unstable. Hell, it
disabled the level 2 cache in every alchemy-based Mac and clone in
existence. That was fixed quickly, but why did months of beta testing
not reveal a problem that two days of released software did? Because
private beta testing never encompasses the vast range of hardware and
software that public testing does. Hotline 1.1b21r2 fixes a bug in
PDM-class machines (Nubus powermacs) that relates to file transfers. I
am willing to bet that a private beta never would have uncovered this
bug. Private testing prolongs the development period and leads to
buggy releases.

But I did not write this letter merely to ask for a public beta 22. I
want to prevent a terrible mistake - the 'corporatization' of
Hotline. Apple Computer is still famous for its 'counter-culture'
atmosphere. It started the whole Silicon Valley programmers-in-shorts
culture. Hotline is - has been - an excellent example of this culture.
Openness. Open minds, open ears, open mouths, discussing what can be
done better, what can be done differently. I fear the Hotline PR team,
in trying to make Hotline as 'businesslike' as possible, has taken
the wrong approach. The PR team wants to start a company, Hotline
Software. And a company by nature does not include everyone. But
rather than building new areas of knowledge and experience that are
private to Hotline Software, the PR team has taken those areas that
once belonged to the Hotline community, and made them closed and
proprietary. Once people were yelled at because they were using beta
16 when beta 17 was out. Now you have to apply and sign an NDA to use
beta 22. Is this progress?

The PR team should be just that - a public relations team. With some
exceptions, the PR team is not the best selection of technically
talented Hotline users. Jason Roks - =A5ukka - has done wonderful
things with his understanding of business. But he is not a programmer.
I do not want to attack him or anyone else, but technical suggestions
should be bounced off a technical crowd. Interface suggestions should
be bounced off people who best understand how a human interface should
work. And there is no better way to find the best people for this task
than to bounce these suggestions off of everyone who uses Hotline.

So please, Hinks, Phil, Jason, Trevor, for the good of the Hotline
Community, open it up! There is a lot of resentment towards what users
see as a clubhouse mentality. This is more damaging to Hotline than
any impression as a "Warez Disneyland" (I forget whose words)
could possibly be. Because the users drive the software. The netizens
drive the internet. And if the hackers hate you, you'd better hope
god loves you.

Thank you,

Noah Daniels


-- Noah M. Daniels
    ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu
   http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/
    "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster"
      - Jonathan Swift

What began
as desire

will end
wiser."

- Allen Ginsberg

"Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in
wonder" - Socrates



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Subject: OpenLetter, Part II
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22R.R=96gner=22?= <da.enemy@rhein-neckar.netsurf.de>
 (by  way of cheesy@cybertours.com (Phil Hilton))
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:57:07 -0500

> So please, Hinks, Phil, Jason, Trevor, for the good of the Hotline
> Community, open it up! There is a lot of resentment towards what users
> see as a clubhouse mentality. This is more damaging to Hotline than
> any impression as a "Warez Disneyland" (I forget whose words)
> could possibly be. Because the users drive the software. The netizens
> drive the internet. And if the hackers hate you, you'd better hope
> god loves you.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Noah Daniels

YES! YES! YES!
 I am using computers since times where they had 1k of ram, cassettes to
store datas and its keyboards felt like rubbers. Doing it like u r going
to do will divide the hotline users into two groups: the "elite" who is
getting actual betas to test and the "non-elite" who gotta wait till a
couple of ppl gives their ok for a new version. Think about the words of
Noah Daniels, he seems to know his stuff he is talking bout. I developed
on other systems utils and other things and it happened with some progs
same as Noah explained: when the bunch of beta-testers is reduced to a
smaller audience ppl will loose their interest in it through feeling as
an "outsider". So, better keep on doing the beta-test like u did before
and let the active hotline-community be a part of  further
beta-releases. That=CDs it... Greez from Germany to all active
hotline-addicts...

Ralf Roegner
Da Enemy MovesT Muzakproductions





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Subject: Re: Open Letter to the Hotline Community
From: togtog -Paul Ramsey <togtog@bewley.net> (by way of
 cheesy@cybertours.com (Phil Hilton))
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:57:15 -0500

>Dear members of the Hotline community,

<snip>

>So please, Hinks, Phil, Jason, Trevor, for the good of the Hotline
>Community, open it up!

<snip>

100 points, great speech. I just hope it hasn't fallen on deaf ears.
I agree with Noah 100%

.......................................................

 ____________________________________________________________
|     togtog -- Paul Ramsey       |    togtog@bewley.net     |\
|---------------------------------|--------------------------| |
|      Knoxville, TN, USA         |   -- togTech Design --   | |
|  http://www.bewley.net/~togtog  | HTML, Graphics, Perl CGI | |
|             -- togtog - Always and forever --              | |
|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|


Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out:
<http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>

Macs are PCs with brains!







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Subject: The Hotline Users Digest #171 - 05/09/97
From: Huck <jason@hotlineSW.com> (by way of cheesy@cybertours.com (Phil
 Hilton))
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:36:22 +0100

OK Noah your point is taken. I have circulated my reply to your message and
hope we can work closer with you guys. If I get involved in one stupid
ruckus on this list again I am gearing it back down to digest mode. I would
ask all of The Hotline principles to keep a closer eye and hear to the
users.

You may ask why do I matter to this list? Lets just say I like to talk
about Hotline and have a tendancy to inadvertently leak information =)>

I understand that a software company has fans not customers. We will (and
are doing) our best.

This weeks digest is tasty and I am glad to see it moving again. We now
have just over 500 listees. We lost 1000 after that last ruckus. Please
respect the other users and realize this list is not here to play monkey
on. Re,member every message you send will got to hundreds of users. I
personally get 400 emails on a slow day. So do many of you. No rules here,
just please try to be courteous.

I will be roughly confirming who everyone is who is on here. If there are
any Apple spys here or any other lurkers for that matter I would ask you to
respectfully leave.

Be part of the action!!!! =)>



>The Hotline Users Digest #171 - Friday, May 9, 1997

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>If I could ever figure out all those weird arcane IRC commands I would
>probably be inclined to use it. Until then, nothing is more user-friendly
>than Hotline.
>
>
>Marc Gray
>
>aka  flash

thanxxxxxxxx (damn 7-up >=(

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>heh   I just tried the ichat plugin for the first time last night.
>
>Hotline is much better!   The ichat plugin crashes my machine.
>
>About the only thing I see that might be nice is the ability to have
>separate rooms on a single server...
>
>Something I think Hinks is pondering.
>
>
>Denny
>
The problem with ichat is not ichat but rather the big hunk of fat it must
run in. The problem with 90% of internet apps is that they rely on a pig
that likes to be fed losts of sloppy ram and code. Netscaope still has not
solved it's cache problem.

Java is another similar dog. Please tell why do I have a super duper
processor and then the software community has the odacity to tell me I
should run my apps over the CLOGGED net, and at a transfer speed less than
my 1x cd-rom ???=/

Your suggestions are on thge TO-DOlist.  BTW what do you think about
putting parts of the TO DO List on the website??
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>we are looking for 10 beta tester for our `Admin Toolkit for Hotline`.
>
>What is this `Admin Toolkit for Hotline`?
>`Admin Toolkit for Hotline` is a application, which let
>administrators of a Hotline server manage their user.
>
>What `Admin Toolkit for Hotline` is not:
>- A product of Hotline Communication.
>
>How to qualify as a beta tester:
>* MUST run a Hotline server with at least 100 registered user.
>* MUST have direct access to the server volume.
>
>To register, please send a reply including a short description of
>your server configuration to
><admin.toolkit@digitalis.at>
>
>If you don't get a reply to your e-mail, you did not qualify, or
>we already have enough beta tester.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Helge Herrgesell
>

lets hear& see??  I have over 1000 regular users. and there is no way you
get access to the flaxen haired princess. =)>

>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>I have found that accidentily dismissing private messages by pressing
>>return in the chat is a real problem in a large chat session.  I really
>>think that the Hotline software needs an alternate way to dismiss the
>>private messages.  They need to be more persistant.
>
>This not work for ports but how about the enter key instead of return...
>or command return if the person has a powerbook keyboard

AGREED HERE HEAR!!! does someone wanna think about the keboard logistics
for that. If it makes sense I am sure Adam can get that in for b22 =)>
Adam???

jr
--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jason roks
corporate development
jason@hotlineSW.com
Hotline Communications
http://www.hotlineSW.com
hotline office i..p.: 169.244.153.3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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Subject: Re: The Hotline Users Digest #171 - 05/09/97
From: "Noah M. Daniels" <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:44:22 -0400



>
>I will be roughly confirming who everyone is who is on here. If there are
>any Apple spys here or any other lurkers for that matter I would ask you
to
>respectfully leave.

Whoa, Apple spies? Is Apple trying to rip you guys off or something?

-- Noah M. Daniels
    ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu
   http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/
    "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster"
      - Jonathan Swift

What began
as desire

will end
wiser."

- Allen Ginsberg

"Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder" -
Socrates



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 
From: Paul Berezanskiy <letoii@earthlink.net> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:12:05 -0400

Does anybody know how many ppl are on Hotline, I think it is time that
we take a census. I personally and maybe some other ppl will undertake
this. any help will be appreciated. If anybody wants to help then mail
me


letoii@earthlink.net



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Subject: Re: Open Letter to the Hotline Community
From: Jeremy Williams <jwilliams@RoanokeVA.NET> (by way of Phil Hilton)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:12:57 -0400

I've gotta agree with Noah.

I came into Hotline fairly late in the game (around b19).  I joined the
list, and checked out a few sites.  It was pretty cool.  It is fast even on
my old machine and is very efficient to use.  I've done some discussion on
the list, and have used every beta since I started.  It has seemed like
since the 'Non-standard Interface' thing (which I don't _ever_ want to see
on Hotline again, and I think that incident is central to this issue) the
amount of user input has kinda fallen off.  I have made a couple of
suggestions that have also had little response at all, and _none_ from
anyone affiliated with the actual development.  This internal beta thing is
totally perposterous!  There's no way limiting the number of testing will
make the product better.  It will make fixing the _known_ bugs easier, but
there also wan't be as many.  I really like hotline and the community that
surrounds it, but this great culture is getting tested.  I want to see it
continue as well.


--
Jeremy Williams
jeremyw@usa.net



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End of The Hotline Users Digest