Tuesday, January 28, 1997 4:00:01 AM
          Message
  From:          The Hotline Users Mailing,Hotline@lists.fwparker.org,Internet
  Subject:   The Hotline Users Digest #14 - 01/28/97
  To:            Geoff Le Feuvre
                 The Hotline Users Mailing List <Hotline@lists.fwparker.org>,Internet
The Hotline Users Digest #14 - Tuesday, January 28, 1997

  Feature Suggestions Round 2
          by  Colin Pye <cp@atcon.com>
  Testing.. 1... 2... 3.........
          by  Phil Hilton <Cheesy@cybertours.com>
  Hotline Server Admins List
          by  <TinManOfOz@aol.com>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  David Murphy <davidmurphy@earthlink.net>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  <boserj@earthlink.net>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  Huck <xinc@wwonline.com>
  Re: Feature Suggestions Round 2
          by  Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
  Re: Feature Suggestions Round 2
          by  Terry Gregory <tgregory@compusmart.ab.ca>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  Noah Daniels <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
  Re: Feature Suggestions Round 2
          by  Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  Phil Hilton <cheesy@cybertours.com>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  Huck <xinc@wwonline.com>
  pig/hog icon for b20
          by  Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
  Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
          by  <boserj@earthlink.net>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Feature Suggestions Round 2
From: Colin Pye <cp@atcon.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:13:26 -0400

>>1.  Have the server generate a bookmark file for itself on startup.  The
>>bookmark could
>>be automatically be uploaded to a web page link, for the dynamic users.
>
>Connect to 127.0.0.1.  This is a special loopback address that connects
>you to yourself.  The address of the server is also displayed in the log
>at startup.

This works fine for local users, but it still doesn't let my machine come
up, attach itself to the net, start the Hotline Server, upload a current
bookmark to my web page, and then settle down to other tasks, like watching
news and mail servers for low disk space.

>>3.  Let the task list be re-arranged, or add switches to "activate" (chang=
e
>>status from queued to active) or "suspend" (Change status from active to
>>queued, like a queued resumed transfer in either direction)
>
>I'll note that down, but I don't know how the UI would work...

UI and Imp notes for the above addition:  Add Yellow Circle and Green
Circle to the Red Circle icon.   The Red segment of the "traffic light"
would retain it's current function.   Yellow Circle would do a cancel
(Red), then re-queue the transfer, without asking about resuming.  Green
could be implemented just like Yellow, except start the transfer as active,
instead of queueing.  As a side effect, Green would restart a stalled
transfer.

>>5.  Something like "Find File", to locate partially-transfered files.
>
>Open Find File, and select "file type" and "is" and "HTft".

Sorry, lack of clarity on my part.  Find file on a client machine does
nothing to find files on a Hotline Server.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Testing.. 1... 2... 3.........
From: Phil Hilton <Cheesy@cybertours.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:14:31 -0500

********************************************************************************


	THIS is a test. This is a test of the Hotline Mailing List Domain
Name server.  I REPEAT! This is ONLY a test.


	Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!


	The Hotline Mailing list was created in voluntary cooperatin with
Adam Hinkley, The creator of Hotline, and the F.W.Parker School of Chicago,
USA, to bring you the ability to discuss The hotline Software, and be
notified of Important events the Hotline Comunity.
	If this had been an actuall emergency, you would have received
THOUSANDS of messages all at the same time, without being able to do a
thing about it.

	This concludes this test of teh Hotline Mailing List Domain Name
Server.

********************************************************************************

	If you received this message, it means that the Domain Name server
is now functioning fully, and you may now send messages to the list at:

	Hotline@lists.fwparker.org

	Not that i minded the lull in my mail, But it seemed kinda strange
to only get 30 msg's today. Feel free to continue the discusions!  :)

					Cheesy,
					Hotline Mailing Lists Admin








----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Hotline Server Admins List
From: TinManOfOz@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:46:55 -0500 (EST)

Hotline Nickname: TinMan
E-mail address:   tinmanofoz@aol.com
Server Name:      Land Of Oz
Server Address:   (dynamic)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: David Murphy <davidmurphy@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 16:52:56 -0500

>Apple is sponsoring the Second Annual Human Interface Design Excellence 
>(HIDE - pronounced like "Heidi") Awards this year at WWDC. The February 
>14th entry deadline is only three weeks away!
...
>Thought you might be interested in this.

Thanks for the tidbit, and sorry for the delay in this reply--The list 
server was out of operation.

You're right, we are interested in HIDE. In fact, we are activly 
preparing an entry application.

Thanks!
David Murphy
Hotline PR; Pope of the Hotline Nickname Registry (see sig for URL)

           <__________________________________________________________>
            \      <"David Murphy" davidmurphy@earthlink.net>        /
            / ...................................................... \
           /        <http://home.earthlink.net/~davidmurphy>          \
          /            Home of Hotline Nickname Registry!              \
         / <http://home.earthlink.net/~davidmurphy/d/hotline_home.html> \
         \                                                              /
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: <boserj@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 13:58:36 -0700

>From:        David Murphy, davidmurphy@earthlink.net
>Reply-To:    The Hotline Users Mailing List, Hotline@macline.fwparker.org
>To:          The Hotline Users Mailing List, Hotline@macline.fwparker.org
>             Mark Walker, Mrwalker@cris.com
>
>>Apple is sponsoring the Second Annual Human Interface Design Excellence 
>>(HIDE - pronounced like "Heidi") Awards this year at WWDC. The February 
>>14th entry deadline is only three weeks away!
>...
>>Thought you might be interested in this.
>
>Thanks for the tidbit, and sorry for the delay in this reply--The list 
>server was out of operation.
>
>You're right, we are interested in HIDE. In fact, we are activly 
>preparing an entry application.
>
>Thanks!
>David Murphy
>Hotline PR; Pope of the Hotline Nickname Registry (see sig for URL)

This is all rather silly, isn't it?  Hotline not only doesn't have
an award-winning interface, it doesn't even live up to apple
guidelines.  Let alone doing something 'new' and 'innovative'
in the field.

Its a good program, but interface design?

.....jeff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: Huck <xinc@wwonline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:59:52 -0400

boserj@earthlink.net wrote:


> This is all rather silly, isn't it?  Hotline not only doesn't have
> an award-winning interface, it doesn't even live up to apple
> guidelines.  Let alone doing something 'new' and 'innovative'
> in the field.
> 
> Its a good program, but interface design?
> 
> .....jeff


Ok Jeff, your comments are valid if you could site an example of what
you are speaking of it would help. It is fine and dandy that you have an
opinion but what is it based on?

Last year the winners were:
Berkley for "you don't know Jack"
Adobe for "illustrator" (oh ya, now thare's an interface:\)
and some alphabet software from a smaller start-up company.

IMO the interface (for what the program currently does) is light years
better than anything out there doing the same task. Name a chat/FT
communications software package that is easier to use than hotline (incl
First Class)

I appreciate your comments but do not respect them due to the lack of
support for your awfully bold statements.

I would really like to hear what you are comparing to in your mind. 

As for the Apple requirements, where does hotline fall short. Again some
information would help.

I t would be like me calling you a dumbass. Unless I have a reason I can
state, it don't mean Jack :)>

cheers and no offense,

jr

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Feature Suggestions Round 2
From: Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 12:19:56 +1100

>This works fine for local users, but it still doesn't let my machine come
>up, attach itself to the net, start the Hotline Server, upload a current
>bookmark to my web page, and then settle down to other tasks, like watching
>news and mail servers for low disk space.

The Hotline Tracker that's coming for b20 will allow you to advertise 
that your server is up and running.

>UI and Imp notes for the above addition:  Add Yellow Circle and Green
>Circle to the Red Circle icon.   The Red segment of the "traffic light"
>would retain it's current function.   Yellow Circle would do a cancel
>(Red), then re-queue the transfer, without asking about resuming.  Green
>could be implemented just like Yellow, except start the transfer as active,
>instead of queueing.  As a side effect, Green would restart a stalled
>transfer.

Hmm could be quite confusing, but I'll note it down.

>>>5.  Something like "Find File", to locate partially-transfered files.
>>
>>Open Find File, and select "file type" and "is" and "HTft".
>
>Sorry, lack of clarity on my part.  Find file on a client machine does
>nothing to find files on a Hotline Server.

Searching the server files from the client is on the To Do list.

____________________________________________________________________
Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline <http://netspace.net.au/~hinks/>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Feature Suggestions Round 2
From: Terry Gregory <tgregory@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 18:18:55 -0700

>The Hotline Tracker that's coming for b20 will allow you to advertise 
>that your server is up and running.

Will it simply submit to the tracker your current ip or will it allow 
other information to be set?  For example:

Have the server have a "Tracker config" option.  It will allow the server 
to submit whatever info about itself that is configured (if "report to 
tracker" is checked).  This would include the current ip, speed of 
connection, whether guest access is permitted, and any other info that 
the admin might want to include.  (his e-mail, comments on the nature of 
the server, etc.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: Noah Daniels <ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:26:08 -0500

>boserj@earthlink.net wrote:

>IMO the interface (for what the program currently does) is light years
>better than anything out there doing the same task. Name a chat/FT
>communications software package that is easier to use than hotline (incl
>First Class)
>
>I appreciate your comments but do not respect them due to the lack of
>support for your awfully bold statements.
>
>I would really like to hear what you are comparing to in your mind.
>

I do know what he's talking about, though I do not agree with him completely.

>As for the Apple requirements, where does hotline fall short. Again some
>information would help.
>

Because Hotline avoids the Mac toolbox for much of its interface work, there
are some interesting side effects. One of them is that there are a lot of
special cases that the toolbox would handle automatically, that Hinks hasn't
debugged yet. For example, the popup menu for selecting a server in the
'connect' box has slight difficulties if it's too big for the screen. Drag &
Drop doesn't yet work. Interface 'patchers' such as ICeTE (which lets you
command-click URLs in TEXTEdit-aware apps) don't generally work.

However, there are some wonderful side-effects as well. Scroll in almost any
mac app, and it 'locks up' the system - for example, scroll in Wordperfect by
clicking on the scroll arrows, and nothing else happens until you let go. Not
so in Hotline! Because Hinks has gone around the Mac toolbox, while he hasn't
yet built in all the nice features he would have inherited from the toolbox, he
has also avoided some serious limitations.

For just this reason - being able to scroll while a transfer progress bar
continually updates in the background - I think Hotline should win the HIDE
Award.


-- Noah M. Daniels
    ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu
   http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/
    "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster"
      - Jonathan Swift

"'Internet' is the 'snausage' word of the 90's."  - Ben Vigoda '96

"Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder" -
Socrates



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 12:57:58 +1100

>Hotline not only doesn't have an award-winning interface,

99% of the people I talk to love the interface.


____________________________________________________________________
Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline <http://netspace.net.au/~hinks/>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Feature Suggestions Round 2
From: Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 13:01:05 +1100

>>The Hotline Tracker that's coming for b20 will allow you to advertise 
>>that your server is up and running.
>
>Will it simply submit to the tracker your current ip or will it allow 
>other information to be set?  For example:

Currently it submits the name of the server, and a description that you 
supply.

____________________________________________________________________
Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline <http://netspace.net.au/~hinks/>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: Phil Hilton <cheesy@cybertours.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:05:54 -0500

>>Hotline not only doesn't have an award-winning interface,
>
>99% of the people I talk to love the interface.

if I remember orrectly, I THINK there was something on this list that
mentioned an apple employee stating that he, "loved the interface"...



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: Huck <xinc@wwonline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:31:06 -0400

Phil Hilton wrote:
> 
> >>Hotline not only doesn't have an award-winning interface,
> >
> >99% of the people I talk to love the interface.
> 
> if I remember orrectly, I THINK there was something on this list that
> mentioned an apple employee stating that he, "loved the interface"...

Nice mamory glands there Phil =)>

You are correct! A to-remain-unnamed Apple Interface programmer did say
the interface was top notch and was quoted to have said, "....(Hotline)
has a good shot at the HIDE."

I guess we will find out in May =)>

jr

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: pig/hog icon for b20
From: Adam Hinkley <hinks@netspace.net.au>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 18:38:18 +1100

Does anyone have a 16x16 icon of a pig or something else that would =
signify a program hogging the computer?   Please mail it to me if you =
do.  Thanks.    It's for a new feature in the b20 server.

BTW, in case you were wondering....

Hotline Server Release Notes

WHAT'S NEW IN 1.1b20    ** SO FAR **

=80 Clients are notified when a client becomes "away" (10 mins =
inactivity) or is no longer away.
 
=80 Increased maximum size of private message from 255 bytes to 2K.

=80 Instead of quitting when there are too many consecutive errors, =
the server now resets itself (disconnect all users etc) and keeps =
going.

=80 When an error occurs while processing a file transfer, that =
transfer is now killed.  The most common cause of a server dying was =
file transfer errors =8B it would continually retry and fail, causing =
a ton of errors. 

=80 Fixed a problem that could cause a file download to stall for up =
to 16 seconds.

=80 Now has a toolbar like the client (the server does not support =
custom toolbars).

=80 Changed connect/disconnect sounds (they were stolen from another =
app).  Thanks Steve!

=80 "Files" folder can now be an alias.

=80 The server confirms quitting when there are people connected, and =
gives the option of displaying a message to users when they get =
disconnected ("Polite Quit").   Note that Polite Quit will not quit =
when pre-b20 clients are connected!

=80 Extra stats in the Statistics window.


____________________________________________________________________
Adam Hinkley, developer of Hotline <http://netspace.net.au/~hinks/>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Human Interface Design Excellence Award (fwd)
From: <boserj@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 00:54:15 -0700

I have no idea why many of you perceive my comments
on Hotline's interface as an attack.  It is not, I
said in my post to the list that Hotline is a good
program.

However, it does not have an innovative interface.

Like I said, it does not support apple guidelines,
its menu's weren't even functional until recently.
As for examples:  popdown menu that doesn't behave
as expected, the lack of disabled greying for
commands/controls that aren't applicable, lack of
support for the menubar for command-key equivalents
(it should blacken for a specific amount of time),
and obscure hidden features (ctl-f12).

There are features of the mac that it doesn't impement
that cripple it, like applescript, drag and drop,
just to name two.   As for how it cripples it, hotline
is unusable by the handicapped, which have many programs
that use applescript to 'type' for them.

Its cute, its got these nifty little icons, it
appeals well to elitism mentalities like hackers
and warez-swappers.  But none of these things
make it an 'innovative' interface.  Kai (Metatools)
has done more work on interfaces in just one
of the controls of just one of its products than
is represented by the entire interface of hotline.

That said, hotline is a cool program for setting up
chat and file exchange.  Its simple and easy to use,
its basic interface is fairly functional, and it has
some nice features like start-stop file transfer.
It would be far more appropriate to send it in for
an award for innovative internet tools.

I do think its going too far.  Its becoming alot more
than just the braindead simple utility I want.  In fact,
I'd love to see it broken into various parts, and have
been considering how to do this myself.  (ie, a chat
server/client combo, a news server/client combo, a
file transfer server/client combo, each much simpler and
easier to use than their current internet counterparts)
But, thats just one opinion on what the future of hotline
should be.  As always, its adam's child, his job to take
it places.

.....jeff

----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of The Hotline Users Digest


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